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   Animal trophy mounts - extent of coverage
P:  1/13/2010 4:00:08 PM
INDEP ADJ

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Last Post: 7/28/2014
Member Since: 11/1/2006

A question came to me from a broker I know.....I don't think any coverage would apply beyond the ACV/RC of the actual trophy mounts i.e...the cost to replace a moose head with another similar moose head (I've already considered and discarded the exclusion for "animals") but, given the diversity of membership here, I thought I'd run this up the flagpole for the group's consideration.

Here's the question: Can replacement cost coverage under a homeowner’s policy, ever insure such things as “bragging rights” and “memories” related to trophy animal mounts?  [My answer:  no, memories and bragging rights aren't physical damage to covered property.]  And, no, none of these things were scheduled so there's no stated value limits or valued policy provisions in the picture.

Then the question turned to whether the insured could claim reimbursement of the cost of hunting trips to re-hunt for the lost animals?

And, how about the argument that the definition of "usefulness" as it relates to replacement cost includes the concepts, as regards trophy animal mounts, of "bragging rights, and memories," and therefore replacement cost coverage under the homeowner policy should include reimbursement to the insured for re-harvesting the lost animals?

Would be interested in what the group has to say.


Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  1/13/2010 4:00:08 PM   |   IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post


 There are 25 replies to this message.  There are 20 replies on this page.

P: 1/13/2010 4:37:38 PM
TRon

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I have had this type claim many times with the same questions presented by the insured.

You owe for like, kind and quality for the Moose Head. Go to ebay or Craigslist, you will find one. File closed.
 
You do not owe for a hunting trip, memories or bragging rights. You owe for a moose head. Period.
 
Good Luck

I Post Large, it is easy on old eyes!!

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P: 1/21/2010 9:25:26 AM
Meg

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When an insured suffers a loss and has to replace furniture, is the trip to the furniture store reimbursed?  No?  Then why would this be any different? 

~Meg~

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P: 1/21/2010 10:23:18 AM
Kevin Hromas

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Most policies will only pay for "direct, physical loss" to insured items. And that loss has to have a quantifiable value. Intangible items don't have a value outside of that specific to the individual person. Mounted trophies are readily found in various sources and have a definate cost.

The time (nuisance factor) involved for an insured to to personally spend in replacing lost contents is not a covered portion of the loss.
 
This principle is a little different when we take itin context of the ALE portion of a loss and the "cost's" involved in an insured traveling back-and-forth to their home if they are in temporary quarters. While you can't include paying the insured for their time in traveling, I regularly include additional amounts for gas and maintanence items by paying them the going IRS rate for mileage.
 
Kevin Hromas - JD, RPA, PLCS
EGA - Houston, TX

Kevin Hromas - JD,EGA,RPA,PLCS,WIND Umpire
Houston, TX

www.KevinHromas.com

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  1/21/2010 10:23:18 AM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 2/4/2010 8:57:49 PM
William S Cook

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[QUOTE]Date: 1/21/2010 10:23:18 AM Author: khromas49454
The time (nuisance factor) involved for an insured to to personally spend in replacing lost contents is not a covered portion of the loss.
 
*****************************************
The time (nuisance factor) involved for a contractor to go to home depot or a building supply house to select and purchase materials should be excluded from a building estimate, assuming it  is not a covered portion of the loss.  Perhaps if the contractor paid a sub-contract driver and a helper to spend time and gas to go selet and pick up materials and bring them to the job site it would be considered a covered portion of the loss.  Perhaps the contractor could explain to the insured that the policy does not cover such cost and the insured will have to personally spend his time securing those necessary items to fix the house.
 
Perhaps the insured could hire a subcontractor to go get the replacement items of his personal property and deliver it back to the house, and bring it inside, and unpack it and put items together and rewire all of the electronics and haul away the trash.  Would it then be compensable as a part of the insured's soft cost of the loss.
 
Not seeking a battle!!
Just the idle thoughts of a person with excess time on his hands
William S Cook
 
 
 
 
 
 

William S Cook Public Adjuster Licensed PA in several states

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  2/4/2010 8:57:49 PM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 2/18/2010 8:35:30 PM
Kevin Hromas

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Spoken like a true PA, William. (LOL)

The activities by a contractor are part of the costs of the direct, physical loss repairs. Those costs are either built into to the individual items or addressed as a separate entry. (Delivery charges, excess mileage considerations, etc.) They must be normal and directly related to the loss repairs. I am at the age in life now where I might have to make 2 or 3 trips to Lowes in the same day to pick up little items I forgot previously while I am remodeling my living room into a media room. If this was a claim, I wouldn't be allowed to charge for multiple trips just because I am getting forgetful.
 
The policy transfers "money" as compensation for lost "property". Whether the insured then chooses to then convert that "money" back into their "property" is their choice. The additional costs involved in doing so is NOT a direct, physical loss.
 
(I am taking a break from finalizing the appraisal documents on $37 million worth of property spread across 6 shopping centers. Sometimes you have to step away for a few minutes.)
 
Kevin Hromas - JD, RPA, PLCS
EGA - Houston, TX

Kevin Hromas - JD,EGA,RPA,PLCS,WIND Umpire
Houston, TX

www.KevinHromas.com

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P: 2/20/2010 9:31:26 AM
William S Cook

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Kevin

Many professionals consider the policy to be a contract of indemnity rather than a medium to transfer money.  If your media room should be the center of a significant fire and caused destruction of the electronic contents in your media room while you were out working on a 37 million dollar shopping center claim. Could you retain a concierge to  deal with and replicate the replacement and installation of your media room to pre-loss condition during your absence?  Absent the fire damage,  retaining the concierge would not have been a necessary expense to have your entertainment room ready for you to relax and recover upon your return.    I wager that Donald Trump and Kevin Hormas will not be bothered with "cease working" to deal with the mundane task of outfitting a media room when a step and fetch-it can be hired as a part of the indemnification from insurers. 
 
I don't know Donald or Kevin personally or how they match up financially , but I am sure Donald would not be shopping and installing his media equipment and I bet Kevin would pay the expenses for a concierge, if he were processing  Donalds's claim.
  I can not comment if restoration of Mr. Trumps "" Feng shui "" portion of the loss would be paid by Kevin based on his conservative adjusting protocols.
 
More idle time for commenting
William S Cook
A True PA

William S Cook Public Adjuster Licensed PA in several states

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  2/20/2010 9:31:26 AM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 5/29/2010 5:23:26 PM
digitory

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No amount of insurance premiums can actually insure these objects in the sense of protecting them from physical harm or theft.”

Once gone, there is no replacing them in the literal sense; there is only left the remedy of substituting for them similar objects of comparable value. The entity that can be said to be insured, therefore, is the value thought necessary to procure an acceptable substitution, thereby continuing the enjoyment and benefits inherent in the bundle of rights we call property ownership. Since the rights conferred in the ownership of a property normally include not only the right to enjoy the benefits of maintained ownership, but also the right to sell and enjoy the proceeds of sale, it could be said that one is insured not a specific tangible object but rather the valuable rights associated with that object.

Appropriate and Relevant Market

Appropriate and relevant market, in the context of insurance coverage, is most customarily understood to be that market in which the insured most typically purchases like items. 

With that being said, “Under appropriate length of time, there are buyers who customarily purchase from specialized high-level retail vendors. The higher-end prices normally associated with such vendors are typically justified in the minds of such buyers by certain benefits often seen to be conveyed with these purchases. Such benefits may include a more extensive warranty……they may also include any added pedigree, called provenance, which may be conferred with purchases from such a vendor, as well as any prestige value or status. Since there does indeed exist a commonly recognized status associated with certain vendors, and since that status is commonly thought to be conferred upon the purchased item as an enhancement of its value, as well possibly as an enhancement status of the owner, it should be quite reasonable to expect that the same item may be worth more to a consumer when purchased at one vendor or marketplace than at another. An insured accustomed to the prestige value and other privileges conveyed to them with the purchase from such a vendor or marketplace may be seen as poorly served by the replacement of that item within lacking these enhancement qualities or privileges. In such case the opposite Replacement Value should realistically be that which includes any and all additional costs necessary to replacing a lost property in the manner most typical to original purchase, including:


 

  1. Costs incurred in purchasing from a specific dealer, gallery or auction house

  2. Those costs incurred in the engagement of consultant, interior designer or other commissioner (i.e “Antique Consultant”)

  3. Those incurred in any transportation or installation of the property



Let’s recap… in order to determine RCV, we must include any expense incurred in any transportation or installation of the property. This goes from a toaster to a commercial blender, from a cd player to a sofa.

 

Conclusion

Replacement Value is a concept of value with particular relevance to insurance coverage. It represents the amount of money required to replace a property with another of similar qualities within a reasonable length of time in an appropriate and relevant market. One must calculate all aspects of replacement to truly determine the replacement cost of any and all items.

Copyrite 2010 Digitory Solutions Inc.

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  5/29/2010 5:23:26 PM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 5/31/2010 9:50:36 AM
Meg

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 I disagree. 

Costs incurred in purchasing from a specific dealer, gallery or auction house

 If a person pays a fee to participate in an auction or an entry fee to a gallery, the fee to enter and participate has nothing to do with the price of the object they might purchase.  That fee would be charged regardless if a person makes a purchase or not.  Has nothing to do with the item itself.  Would parking fees also be considered costs incurred in your scenario? 

 Those costs incurred in the engagement of consultant, interior designer or other commissioner (i.e. “Antique Consultant”)

 If a person hires someone to procure an item for them, that fee is not part of the cost of that item, that fee is just that, a fee to hire someone to perform a particular task.  Not part of the cost of the item itself.

 If a person hires an interior decorator to consult/perform work in their home, that fee has nothing to do with the items purchased, i.e., the interior designer suggests a particular sofa which costs $2,500.00 from XYZ designs.  How do you think that interior designer's fee $1,000.00 could possibly be included in the replacement cost when the home burns down and the $2,500.00 sofa is destroyed???  Would you try to say that it was a $3,500.00 sofa?  Would you split the interior designer's fee among all the furniture that was purchased during the time they were consulting? 

 Those incurred in any transportation or installation of the property

 So, Mr. Insured has purchased the $2,500.00 sofa from XYZ designs and the sofa is delivered for a fee of $100.00.

The home burns down and Mr. Insured places a claim for the Sofa, the consultation fee of $1,000.00 and the delivery fee of $100.00????

No!

The delivery fee is a separate charge, as is the Interior designer's bill for services.  Not part of the replacement cost of the $2,500.00 sofa. 

 Let’s recap… in order to determine RCV, we must include any expense incurred in any transportation or installation of the property. This goes from a toaster to a commercial blender, from a cd player to a sofa.

 Are you trying to say that the following scenario is how RCV is determined??????

 Mrs. Insured purchases an oil painting for $1,000.00 from ABC auction house, with the help of her interior designer.  The fee to enter the auction is $25.00, the Interior Designer is charging $100.00 per hour, and the auction lasts 3 hours.  While there, Mrs. Insured buys lunch for herself and the interior designer for $25.00.  The fee for parking at the auction house is $10.00.  The cost of gas to and from the auction is $35.00. 

Mrs. Insured hires Bob, the local handyman to hang the painting for $100.00

The home burns down and Mrs. Insured claims loss of the painting.

 What your saying is that she could recoup not only the price she paid for the painting but also the interior designer's fee, the cost to enter the auction, the parking fee and Bob's fee for hanging the painting.

 $1,000.00       Oil Painting           

$     25.00       Entry Fee

$   300.00       Interior Designer's fee

$     10.00       Parking

$    25.00        Lunch

$    35.00        Gas to travel to and from Auction house

$   100.00        Bob's fee to hang painting

=======

$1,495.00     RCV???????

Conclusion

Replacement Value is a concept of value with particular relevance to insurance coverage. It represents the amount of money required to replace a property with another of similar qualities within a reasonable length of time in an appropriate and relevant market. One must calculate all aspects of replacement to truly determine the replacement cost of any and all items.
 
Read the above scenario and then tell me that's how you determine RCV of an item. 

~Meg~

View Revisions : 1   |    Posted:  5/31/2010 9:50:36 AM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 5/31/2010 10:32:30 AM
William S Cook

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Meg

In trying to agree with your theory of indemnity, I suggest that the insurers only owes for the cost of a blank canvas with no paint on it and then add the cost of the pigments used and your theory of indemnity has been met.  Why should insurers have to pay hundreds of dollars  for an "ARTIST" to spread the pigments on the canvas. 
 
Meg, what is your full name and home state?  I look forward to meeting you professionally in the future.
 
William S Cook
Florida Public Adjuster
 

William S Cook Public Adjuster Licensed PA in several states

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  5/31/2010 10:32:30 AM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 5/31/2010 12:02:16 PM
digitory

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Mr. Cook, great example!!

Why should carriers pay for some "artist" to splash paints on a canvas?
Why should carriers pay for the "framing" of that painted canvas?

We must be conspiracy theorists.....

;)




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P: 5/31/2010 12:52:32 PM
Meg

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That doesn't compare to my example, and you know it. 

I was quoting what Digitory had posted, and using a logical comparison.  We're not here trying to decide what the value of a painting is, we can leave that to the professional art dealers. 
What I said was that the cost of the interior designer, the delivery, the consultations and the other costs 'incurred' as quoted by Digitory were not relevant. 

~Meg~

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P: 5/31/2010 1:08:12 PM
William S Cook

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Meggie

Is the cost of the opinion of the "professional art dealer" opinion a compensable expense for the insured if insurers dispute the value?  What about the opinion of the computer expert to verify that the electronics were damaged by a covered peril?  I consider all soft cost invoved in the replacement of an article to be a part of the loss unless excluded in the policy. My painting example is an extreme argument but only provided in support of your suggestions.
 
What is your full name and what is your home state, young lady?
 
William S Cook
Public Adjuster
Orlando Florida

William S Cook Public Adjuster Licensed PA in several states

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  5/31/2010 1:08:12 PM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 5/31/2010 1:16:13 PM
Meg

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 In trying to agree with your theory of indemnity, I suggest that the insurers only owes for the cost of a blank canvas with no paint on it and then add the cost of the pigments used and your theory of indemnity has been met.  Why should insurers have to pay hundreds of dollars  for an "ARTIST" to spread the pigments on the canvas. 

Mr. Cook, that's an absurd comparison and you know it.  I won't even waste the time to go into why that doesn't deserve a response. 

Meg, what is your full name and home state?  I look forward to meeting you professionally in the future.

 Mr. Cook, is that some kind of challenge?  I see no reason to be rude or condescending here, and I don't appreciate your insinuation. 
 
 

~Meg~

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P: 5/31/2010 1:17:09 PM
Meg

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Billy, don't call me Meggie

~Meg~

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P: 5/31/2010 1:24:05 PM
digitory

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Meg,

Maybe this may be interesting to you, considering your "auction house" example....
 
As you stated in your earlier post:
 
Are you trying to say that the following scenario is how RCV is determined??????

 Mrs. Insured purchases an oil painting for $1,000.00 from ABC auction house, with the help of her interior designer.  The fee to enter the auction is $25.00, the Interior Designer is charging $100.00 per hour, and the auction lasts 3 hours.  While there, Mrs. Insured buys lunch for herself and the interior designer for $25.00.  The fee for parking at the auction house is $10.00.  The cost of gas to and from the auction is $35.00. 

What you should think about is this: "Auction House Valuation" is different then "Replacement Cost Value".

Quoting an auction house price is essentially quoting the whole sale price, what the Art stores would pay.

...auction prices usually are lower than what they would sell for at a retail shop. An auction value is usually the closest value to wholesale, Kerry says. This is because an auctioned piece is only on sale for a short period of time — until the auctioneer's hammer falls — which limits the demand. Shop dealers often ask, and can get, a higher price on an object because they can put it on display for weeks and months, waiting for just the right customer to walk through the door.

Source: Antique Road Show http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/tips/value.html

Meg, if you quote an auction price, you must add in the costs that are not included, such as framing, auction costs, etc., as these costs are absorbed into a store's asking price, which is the replacement cost value.

 
Insurance Value
For important antiques and collectibles, appraisers such as Kerry also provide what's known as an insurance value, so that the owner can replace an object if it is destroyed or stolen. Insurance values tend to be set at the top end of retail value. That is done, Kerry says, so that those who need to replace goods lost to theft or to accident will have enough insurance money to buy an equivalent item from a dealer at current prices.
 
Now, if you would find the same piece of artwork in a "store", the retail price would likely be 30%-50% more then the "auction price". If you add in your costs to the auction value, you still maybe at a lesser value then the retail price!
 
 
 
 

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P: 5/31/2010 1:32:42 PM
William S Cook

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Date: 5/31/2010 1:17:09 PM Author: Meg Billy, don't call me Meggie

 
Yes mam
 
Then what is your name and what is your home state?
 
Billy
Florida

William S Cook Public Adjuster Licensed PA in several states

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  5/31/2010 1:32:42 PM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 5/31/2010 1:38:14 PM
Kevin Hromas

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Mr. Cook,

Your personal and condescending attack on Meg Watts was un-professional and un-called for.
 
I have known Meg for a period of years now and have used her to handle contents replacement assessments on multiple hurricane and other peril claims. I also know that national vendors have used her services as well.
 
I also consider her a friend so if you want to pick a fight with her ... you also pick a fight with ME ... and THAT, Sir ... you do NOT want to do.
 
Do us a favor and offer her a sincere apology and let's keep Claimspages a place for intelligent discussion. If you want to get into name-calling, go visit C***.
 
Kevin Hromas - JD, RPA, PLCS, WIND Umpire
EGA - Houston, TX

Kevin Hromas - JD,EGA,RPA,PLCS,WIND Umpire
Houston, TX

www.KevinHromas.com

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  5/31/2010 1:38:14 PM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 5/31/2010 1:58:18 PM
William S Cook

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Member Since: 11/1/2006

Date: 5/31/2010 1:38:14 PM Author: khromas49454

Mr. Cook,

Your personal and condescending attack on Meg Watts was un-professional and un-called for.
I have known Meg for a period of years now and have used her to handle contents replacement assessments on multiple hurricane and other peril claims. I also know that national vendors have used her services as well.
I also consider her a friend so if you want to pick a fight with her ... you also pick a fight with ME ... and THAT, Sir ... you do NOT want to do.
Do us a favor and offer her a sincere apology and let's keep Claimspages a place for intelligent discussion. If you want to get into name-calling, go visit C***.
Kevin Hromas - JD, RPA, PLCS, WIND Umpire
EGA - Houston, TX

Spoken like the true professional that you claim to be, as indicated in your prior postings.  I had no idea that it was Meg Watts, your personal friend, that I was dealing with.  If an apology is in order for lack of professionalism, I will be the second in line to do so.  I am off to go visit C***
 
Just for you information I know Karoke
 
William S Cook
Florida Public Adjuster
That changes everything.
 

William S Cook Public Adjuster Licensed PA in several states

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  5/31/2010 1:58:18 PM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post
P: 5/31/2010 2:58:34 PM
Meg

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Member Since: 7/25/2008

Mr. Cook:

If a difference of opinion is all it takes to generate your condescending comments, demands to reveal personal information online and disrespectful behavior from you,  then I see we have a clear disagreement on what is professional behavior.  

Citing a previous post, I stated my opinion on how to arrive at an RCV value of an item,  and you felt the need to jump in and utilize a clearly juvenile example in an attempt to discredit me.  Not only that but then challenged me by asking my full name and home state and made the comment that you would love to meet me professionally, implying what exactly?  Then you post again, corrupting my name and then called me "young lady' in your unprofessional and chauvinistic way, to what? Humiliate yourself?  I'm not even quite sure what you were attempting to accomplish. 
 
I will forgive your behavior here as some kind of tantrum that you were having, and remind myself who I am dealing with.  I've always found it questionable when a man attacks a woman as you did here.  What exactly are you  trying to prove here?  Is it some lack you're trying to overcome?  Is that the reason you call me "young lady", in an attempt to show how "manly" you are?  I find you to be discourteous, rude and uncivil.  Are you threatened that a woman is actually a licence adjuster and dares to come into these hallowed halls and actually give an opinion?   By your behavior here today,  I must assume it's your opinion that women should be restricted to sitting at the desk and be forced to listen to people like  you call us "Honey" and "Young Lady". 
 
Mr. Cook, your behavior is quite boorish and uncouth, and no, I don't ever expect to hear an apology for your behavior, but please, in the future, do me the courtesy of not responding to me whatsoever, as I don't have the time, nor the desire to communicate with boorish Neanderthals such as yourself. 
 
 

~Meg~

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P: 5/31/2010 3:00:41 PM
Meg

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By the way, if you had half the amount of professionalism that Mr. Hromas has in his little finger, you would be a success in your career and in life.  But alas, 'tis not so. 

~Meg~

Revisions : 0   |    Posted:  5/31/2010 3:00:41 PM    |    IP:  Recorded    |    Report this post

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